The Distinctive Sound of HOCNA Choirs in the Boston Area

Dear Mr. Nassis,

I don't need PR for myself. You seek answers in the wrong places.

Ordinarily, I would not entertain your demand, but in the interest of fact, I will provide you with just enough to get you started on your apparent objective of uncovering my rank and serial number:

1) Look at volume 3 of the "who's who"in Byzantine Music published by Phillipas Oikonomou (Βυζαντινή Εκκλησιαστική Μουσική και Ψαλμωδία-Ιστορικομουσικολογική Μελέτη, 1997) under the letter "G". This three volume compendium lists some of those people you champion (in volume 2), but more importantly it lists many more who were included because of the opinion of their teachers, Protopsaltai in Greece and elsewhere and peers.

2) Since you seek my rank and serial number, you can get those from the unparalleled Emanuel Hatzimarkos, the Archon Hymnodist of the Great Church of Christ George Hatzichronoglou, the Archon Mousikodidaskalos of the Great Church of Christ Vasilios Katsifis, the Archon Maistor of the Great Church of Christ Grigoris Ntaravanoglou, Archon Protopsaltis of the Metropolis of Kaisariani Panagiotis Sousounis, George Naoum, George Karamanis, Panagiotis Dermousis, Archon Protopsaltis of the Metropolis of Canada Constantinos Lagouros, and.....since I understand you once served in Chicago - Nikolaos Georgafentis. Also, you may remember Stelios Kontakiotis who served in Washington DC? Need I go on with more names? Would you like their phone numbers? Would you like a list of Hierarchs perhaps of the Ecumenical Throne? Perhaps priests who are also exceptional chanters in Greece and elsewhere?


It would be tempting to ask you the same question you asked me, but the voice serves the Lord and the Ekklhsiasma and not the ego. Your question (correct me if I am wrong) appears to be ego-motivated. Just because, Mr. Nassis, someone chooses to not put oneself on Google (aided by sound reinforcement and rackmount or computer-generated effects and voice corrections) does not imply they do not exist, or that they know nothing or are "self-proclaimed".

3) Would you like to see a list of awards and accomplishments and newspaper acclaims (major newspapers in Greece perhaps)? See, you don't look in the right places Mr. Nassis.....

4) Perhaps some audio transcripts from programs of the Radio Station of the Church of Greece might be worth pursuing?

I could go on, but it is really pointless, as I balance my response to you to reflect fact and not to fall into the trap that someone may misrepresent as self-aggrandisement. I leave further sleuth work to you if you really have nothing better to do in life....

You see Mr. Nassis, you don't remember me, but I remember you and your brother when I visited your parish many years ago.....I really thank you so much for your kind welcome. I cherish it and remember it. It indeed was a demonstration on your part of Christian love.....

On the other hand, you are more than welcome to drive a little East and join me at the Cathedral in Pittsburgh. You are welcome in fellowship and Christian love to chant as you please. We have a very sophisticated audience many of whom are from Constantinople and Asia Minor who remember the Protopsaltes of the period and I am sure they will find you pleasant.

Also, if you seek recorded material Mr. Nassis, please come to Pittsburgh and I will provide you with enough (covering the period between 1984-today) to make your ride back to wherever you reside now uplifting and, maybe educational.

Since you invoke the usual Karas group as having a formative effect on you (am I correct in making this comment?), your line of argumentation is not surprising. Please read the Greek threads in this forum on the errors and folly (I would add heresy) of the Karas viewpoint and also make yourself aware of the encyclicals of the Church of Greece regarding the heresy you allude to. Also, Ketsetsis and Sourlatzis I do not understand why you lopped them into the Karas group. The late Sourlatzis would probably scold you and I doubt Fotios Ketzetzis would accept being considered belonging to the same category as those who share the Karas viewpoint. However, maybe you know more than I do.....

Our church (I assume you are still part of the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate) follows Canons and rules. Anything that strays outside the canons and rules is a heresy Mr. Nassis.

I don't need your approval or blessing Mr. Nassis to be considered legitimate, nor do I wish to be part of "your" group (i.e. the Karas heresy). More relevant, vocally-talented and historically-traditional Protopsaltes in Greece have pronounced their verdict on legitimacy and faithfulness to tradition years before you probably learned Ni-Pa-Vou-Ga-Di in the Chrysanthine System which (correct me if I am wrong) you abandoned in favor of highly peculiar and historically, acoustically and musicologically-untenable sophist meanderings that you and your confreres present as the "real" Byzantine Music.

But, I will demonstrate in this Forum and elsewhere, as necessary, what makes the Karas viewpoint a musical (theoretical and historical) heresy to anyone willing to think scientifically and scholarly and to seriously learn Byzantine Music according to what Patriarchal and Constantinopolitan teachers spread throughout Asia Minor, Greece, the Balkans and the Middle/Near East.

America had and continues to have some very good and historically-accurate chant tradition Mr. Nassis (Savvas Savvas+, Fotis Ketzetzis, Dimitris Pappas, Iraklis Panagiotidis, Nikos Georgafentis [and some other very good psaltai in Chicago I might add]). As far as I know, none of these servants of tradition followed or follow the Karas viewpoint.......

Thank you for your kind concern about my "epifaneia". I do not seek it, nor do I need it.

For those interested in learning Byzantine Music in a SYSTEMATIC MANNER and not a weekend session where nothing else than a survey can be realistically offered, and in the tradition of what the Ecumenical Patriarchate holds as the gold standard, there is a program, sanctioned by the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh (which is part of the jurisdictions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate) that they can take advantage of:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showthread.php?t=11749

Best of all, it is free:

NG

Mr. Nassis,

Obviously your 25-year "immersion" in Byzantine Music has been slightly sheltered if you've never heard of Nick Giannoukakis. The U.S. gained a true supporter and excellent chanter of Byzantine Music when he left Canada and came here. And yes, he IS the director of the Byzantine Choir of the Metropolis of Pittsburgh.

I would like to address one comment that you made, however, in your most recent post, and that is this one:

greek487 said:

If you are to succeed at all in America, Mr. Giannoukaki, you must radically channel your eagerness to judge and condemn those you disagree with into educating and teaching those we wish to develop. Then let your students decide for themselves where they stand on the "musicological issue."

Click to expand...

You use harsh words like "judge" and "comdemn". Mr. Giannoukakis is neither judging nor condemning anyone. He IS, in fact, educating and teaching (as you suggest) by merely stating facts and arguments against the Karas heresy. The fact that supporters of that camp don't like (and can't answer to) those facts is a different story. Those persons continue to cry "foul" and rant and rave and go down kicking and screaming when they are discreditted.

Finally, you nonchalantly imply that the "students can decide for themselves" on the issue, as if the Karas theories are some sort of "alternative lifestyle" and that students have a bona-fide "choice". Unfortunately, it is not a "legitimate" choice because those theories have never been legitimized. And I'll tell you something else: I'm willing to bet you a shiny penny that if any of Mr. Giannoukakis' students decided to follow the Karas methods, he would not be a student of his for much longer. I don't speak for Nick, but I know that's how it would be with my own students.

Apostolos

apostolos said:

You use harsh words like "judge" and "comdemn". Mr. Giannoukakis is neither judging nor condemning anyone. He IS, in fact, educating and teaching (as you suggest) by merely stating facts and arguments against the Karas heresy.

Click to expand...

I am going to blow this statement up and post it on my wall. This is amazing.

Words like "judge" and "condemn" were too "harsh" for you? And your next statement refers to "the Karas HERESY"?

Priceless......now not only are we dealing with "objective experts", we're dealing with amateur theologians.

Definition of heresy:

(From Wikipedia)
Heresy is a controversial or novel change to a system of beliefs, especially a religion, that conflicts with established dogma

The word "heresy" comes from the Greek hairetikos "able to choose" (haireisthai "to choose").

According to Merriam-Webster: from Late Latin haeresis, from Late Greek hairesis, from Greek, "action of taking, choice, sect", from hairein "to take".

By these definitions and the Greek equivalent which I have defined in the Greek sections, the Karas view IS A HERESY!

It has nothing to do with theology.

Not only do you not understand English, you don't even understand Greek!

Mr. Nassis, you are beginning to amuse me

NG

greek487 said:

I am going to blow this statement up and post it on my wall. This is amazing.

Words like "judge" and "condemn" were too "harsh" for you? And your next statement refers to "the Karas HERESY"?

Priceless......now not only are we dealing with "objective experts", we're dealing with amateur theologians.

Click to expand...

Mr. Nassis,

I just simply don't have the time to sit and respond to all of your out-of-synch comments and misunderstandings that you continue to belabor. No sooner do I begin to reply to something, you beat me to the punch with another doozie. I, like Mr. Giannoukakis, am also amused. Perhaps you should consider attending the Byzantine Music seminar in Pittsburgh next month... you know, just as a "refresher".

Apostolos

Mr. Giannoukakis,

Forgive me for not remembering your name or likeness. Over the years, we have hosted many a guest at our group's analogion. We embrace anyone that chants byzantine music, regardless of their teacher or approach. I have always viewed our guests as fellow travelers and fellow explorers in a great and rich musical tradition.

But you will notice that I have never made a single claim in any of my discussions. You claimed that you were an "expert", yet were nowhere to found in any of my archives. I found that puzzling. I believe that to be a legitimate question.

Thank you for explaining your background. I might have disagreements with some of your influences, but respect and recognize them. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to search for common ground? Wouldn't it be better to encourage the teaching and practice of byzantine music even if it's from a different school? Why not build each other up instead of tear each other down?

And just as you and I will be gracious hosts to each other when we chant together, why not be gracious online to the young group in Boston? Why not encourage other young people to join them in order to learn and grow in our musical tradition?

Because if I can't positively influence someone in your city, I will recommend that he go to you to learn. Why not?

Collaboration is necessary, not antagonism.

Tasos

Mr. Nassis is too advanced for this, Apostolos.

Unless I am wrong, his theoretical background has conferred to him the ability to read and faithfully execute 15th century paleography cadence by cadence to what Koukouzelis sounded like.

We're simply too basic to understand that level of sophistication.

So let's focus on things we understand: 1800s classic texts, and 60+ years of chant tradition as archived in audio format since the time of Naypliotis.



NG.

In your world gentlemen, "experts", in musicology I presume, use the term "heresy"?

You hear musicians, artists, and scientists speaking in terms like "heresy" and "dogmas"? So if there's a contrary scholary theory you disagree with you call it a heresy? The theory of climate change or global warming is a heresy?

We might use that term metaphorically or rhetorically, but that term is best employed in a religous context. And that's why you two are not heretics in order to be punished and condemned, you're simply wrong.

You cannot leverage the Ecumenical Patriarchate and our faith to fight your music war. Then you do not only do a disservice to our music, you are misconstruing our faith as well.

All this, from a simple inquiry regarding two choirs with a similar sound in Boston. Unbelievable....

Psaltologion needs a whole new section titled Music Wars: The Dark Side of Byzantine Music....

Dear Mr. Nassis,


You hear musicians, artists, and scientists speaking in terms like "heresy" and "dogmas"?


Yes they do.


So if there's a contrary scholary theory you disagree with you call it a heresy?

A heresy is an OUTLIER Mr. Nassis. Did you not understand this? The Karas viewpoint represents a view that is not shared by the large majority of chantors or of music conservatories. It was largely promoted in 1982. It is a revisionist view. That it represents the view of a MINORITY of individuals (although vocal and in some "prestigious" centers in Greece and elsewhere) renders it a heresy by the definition you should have considered earlier.


The theory of climate change or global warming is a heresy?

Mr. Nassis, most scientists have accepted global warming as responsible for climate change one of a number of possibilities. Climate change can be due to many other reasons other than global warming. Read the literature. Suffice it to say that GW responsible for CC is not a heresy because the literature is supportive of the hypothesis.

On the other hand, the data regarding Byzantine chant is ORAL. And the oral tradition DOES NOT SUPPORT the Karas viewpoint. Therefore, the Karas viewpoint is an outlier, out of the mainstream and hence a heresy.

We might use that term metaphorically or rhetorically, but that term is best employed in a religous context.

No it is not. You really really don't understand Greek or English do you?

You cannot leverage the Ecumenical Patriarchate and our faith to fight your music war. Then you do not only do a disservice to our music, you are misconstruing our faith as well.


REALLY???? So when the EP came out against polyphony in EDICTS (never mind that they are not being enforced in America) did it NOT have the right to do so? Do tell, Mr. Nassis- where does the EP have the right to intervene? What issues are "do not touch" for the EP? Is music not an issue that the EP should consider? It did so NUMEROUS TIMES in the 1800s and in the 1900s. Was that taboo?

All this, from a simple inquiry regarding two choirs with a similar sound in Boston. Unbelievable....

All this to sensitise an otherwise well-meaning audience about revisionism and misrepresention of history and tradition.


Psaltologion needs a whole new section titled Music Wars: The Dark Side of Byzantine Music....[/QUOTE]

I agree. In the words of a Jedi Sage:

"Yes. A psaltis' strength flows from the Patriarchal Tradition. But beware the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side of our Music are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did with Karas’ apprentices."
Yoda

NG

apostolos said:

And I'll tell you something else: I'm willing to bet you a shiny penny that if any of Mr. Giannoukakis' students decided to follow the Karas methods, he would not be a student of his for much longer. I don't speak for Nick, but I know that's how it would be with my own students.

Apostolos

Click to expand...

Apostole,
I'm glad you brought up this point. Many who follow Karas' approach were in fact conservatory students of byzantine chant, but had many unanswered questions and gaps in their understanding (see below). And with the Karas approach they found a systematic, nuanced understanding based on the musical foundations of byzantine chant.

....................

Why is it that most of the compositions chanted nowadays are so contemporary? I know that older scores exist but why are they neglected?

How exactly do I do isokratema? Is it mere harmony and I should simply do what sounds nice.

How exactly do I do the petaste, the omalon, the andikenoma, the syndesmos, the psifiston? Can I get a more specific answer than "extra emphasis"?

Why is it that most analogion groups are comprised of a central dominant voice that yells to the top of his lungs and everyone else follows as best they can, rarely chanting the exact some analyses?

Do we actually follow the typikon correctly?

Why is it that the older manuscripts have no such thing as Leitourgika in modes, but in the 20th century we have innumerable compositions?

Is improvising the Cherubic Hymn and other pieces traditional?

Should ALL members of the analogion where a rason? Or just the main chanter?

Why do some chanters try to make every piece into an amane? Is that our tradition?

Is the isokrati machine traditional?

Can you teach byzantine chant with the piano?

Should we seek to chant as a group in one coherent voice? Or is our tradition mainly a solo display of virtuosity?

During the koinoniko, can we basically chant whatever we want?

greek487 said:

Psaltologion needs a whole new section titled Music Wars

Click to expand...

Indeed. I just hope that all the people interested in learning Byzantine music who visit this site will have the patience to sort though all these "wars" to find helpful information and won't be turned off by all of the posts containing comments with varying degrees of unfriendliness.

Dear Mr. Nassis,

In response:


Forgive me for not remembering your name or likeness. Over the years, we have hosted many a guest at our group's analogion. We embrace anyone that chants byzantine music,

Well, I really really thank you for your generous offer to permit me to recite the epistle reading. I introduced myself to you and your brother at the end of the Katavasies. After the "typika" smiles and handshakes, both of you shoved the microphones so close to your mouths to ensure that only your voices would be picked up. BTW, I was the only other person at the analogion that day. I am 6 ft 2, so perhaps I was not large enough to notice. The epistle reading, BTW, was consequent to YOUR PARISH PRIEST COMING OUT AND ADMONISHING YOU for your "embrace" of, at least, this visitor.....


You claimed that you were an "expert", yet were nowhere to found in any of my archives. I found that puzzling.

Then your archives and their content is quite limited in scope and breadth. Of course, if you are an adherent of the Karas method I am not surprised. The world for you apparently revolves around Karas.


Wouldn't it be more beneficial to search for common ground?

The ground we have in common is the Chrysanthine System and the Three Teachers as well as the classical texts. So long as we speak that language we will understand each other.


Wouldn't it be better to encourage the teaching and practice of byzantine music even if it's from a different school?

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Our church and its traditions do not follow the philosophy of what is "current" or "sexy" and our church does not consider "alternative lifestyles". Our church leaves us with traditions and practices passed from generation to generation. Anything not in line with that is a HERESY.


Why not build each other up instead of tear each other down?

You see Mr. Nassis, I am not the one who tore myself away from what our church chant tradition has passed down. Those who follow alternative views not in line with tradition have tore themselves away. It is my responsibility and DUTY to the church to demonstrate and point to the dangers of such movements.

And just as you and I will be gracious hosts to each other when we chant together,

like that wonderful Sunday a while ago (see above).....

why not be gracious online to the young group in Boston? Why not encourage other young people to join them in order to learn and grow in our musical tradition?

Mr. Nassis, I did not criticise the nobility of the folks of HOCNA in their effort. I criticised what they are teaching. Did you have a chance to listen to their webpage posts? EVen by your Karas standards, they have a long way to go. So, if they are not up to speed as PRACTITIONERS, just WHAT are they TEACHING?


Collaboration is necessary, not antagonism.

Collaboration works when there is a common ground. Where there is a pathology, it has to be treated or prevented Mr. Nassis.

NG

frephraim said:

Indeed. I just hope that all the people interested in learning Byzantine music who visit this site will have the patience to sort though all these "wars" to find helpful information and won't be turned off by all of the posts containing comments with varying degrees of unfriendliness.

Click to expand...

Dear Fr. Ephraim,

The posts and the posters speak for themselves.

In Christ.

NG

.....

Dear Mr. Nassis,


You hear musicians, artists, and scientists speaking in terms like "heresy" and "dogmas"?


Yes they do.

maybe in the middle ages

So if there's a contrary scholary theory you disagree with you call it a heresy?

A heresy is an OUTLIER Mr. Nassis. Did you not understand this? The Karas viewpoint represents a view that is not shared by the large majority of chantors or of music conservatories. It was largely promoted in 1982. It is a revisionist view. That it represents the view of a MINORITY of individuals (although vocal and in some "prestigious" centers in Greece and elsewhere) renders it a heresy by the definition you should have considered earlier.

the Karas approach is not a heresy metaphorical or otherwise.....and widely held views do change

The theory of climate change or global warming is a heresy?

Mr. Nassis, most scientists have accepted global warming as responsible for climate change one of a number of possibilities. Climate change can be due to many other reasons other than global warming. Read the literature. Suffice it to say that GW responsible for CC is not a heresy because the literature is supportive of the hypothesis.

heresy is not a scientific term and has no place in scientific discourse

On the other hand, the data regarding Byzantine chant is ORAL. And the oral tradition DOES NOT SUPPORT the Karas viewpoint. Therefore, the Karas viewpoint is an outlier, out of the mainstream and hence a heresy.

i disagree.....in fact, Karas uses oral tradition to interpret the written tradition.....but you need to be careful of foreign influences, either western or eastern......byzantine music is neither amane, opera, or barbaric yelling

We might use that term metaphorically or rhetorically, but that term is best employed in a religous context.

No it is not. You really really don't understand Greek or English do you?

eisai sta kala sou kurie giannoukaki? ... =)

You cannot leverage the Ecumenical Patriarchate and our faith to fight your music war. Then you do not only do a disservice to our music, you are misconstruing our faith as well.


REALLY???? So when the EP came out against polyphony in EDICTS (never mind that they are not being enforced in America) did it NOT have the right to do so? Do tell, Mr. Nassis- where does the EP have the right to intervene? What issues are "do not touch" for the EP? Is music not an issue that the EP should consider? It did so NUMEROUS TIMES in the 1800s and in the 1900s. Was that taboo?

the ecumenical patriarch is NOT opposed to the Karas approach to byzantine music.....he works closely with many Karas influenced teachers and chantors.....in fact, his All Holiness has publickly honored and praised them numerous times.....any suggestion to the contrary is inaccurate

All this, from a simple inquiry regarding two choirs with a similar sound in Boston. Unbelievable....

All this to sensitise an otherwise well-meaning audience about revisionism and misrepresention of history and tradition.

i don't think our audience is edified by this antagonistic thread.....i believe they would prefer collaboration instead of accusations of "heresy"

Psaltologion needs a whole new section titled Music Wars: The Dark Side of Byzantine Music....

I agree. In the words of a Jedi Sage:

"Yes. A psaltis' strength flows from the Patriarchal Tradition. But beware the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side of our Music are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did with Karasʼ apprentices."
Yoda

are you channeling the Jedi Sage here or George Michalakis... =)

Ta leme,
Tasos
NG[/quote]

frephraim said:

Indeed. I just hope that all the people interested in learning Byzantine music who visit this site will have the patience to sort though all these "wars" to find helpful information and won't be turned off by all of the posts containing comments with varying degrees of unfriendliness.

Click to expand...

I agree Fr., even though there should be no war in my eyes. I choose to not reciprocate any more unfriendliness. And when the word "pathology" is introduced, the conversation has gone over the deep end.

Mr. Nassis:

You write
My response

the Karas approach is not a heresy metaphorical or otherwise.....and widely held views do change

A heresy is an OUTLIER Mr. Nassis. Did you not understand this? The Karas viewpoint represents a view that is not shared by the large majority of chantors or of music conservatories. It was largely promoted in 1982. It is a revisionist view. That it represents the view of a MINORITY of individuals (although vocal and in some "prestigious" centers in Greece and elsewhere) renders it a heresy by the definition you should have considered earlier.



heresy is not a scientific term and has no place in scientific discourse


From Wikipedia: Contemporary heresy

Today, heresy can be without a religious context as the holding of ideas that are in fundamental disagreement with the status quo in any practice and branch of knowledge. Religion is not a necessary component of the term's definition. The revisionist paleontologist Robert T. Bakker, who published his findings as The Dinosaur Heresies, jokingly treated the mainstream view of dinosaurs as dogma.

The term heresy is also used as an ideological pigeonhole for contemporary writers because by definition heresy depends on contrasts with an established orthodoxy. For example, the tongue-in-cheek contemporary usage of heresy, such as to categorize a "Wall Street heresy" a "Democratic heresy" or a "Republican heresy", are metaphors which invariably retain a subtext that links orthodoxies in geology or biology or any other field to religion. These expanded metaphoric senses allude to both the difference between the person's views and the mainstream, and the boldness of such a person in propounding these views.

Variance from orthodox Marxism-Leninism is described as "right" or "left deviationism." The Church of Scientology uses the term "squirreling" to refer to unauthorized alterations of its teachings or methods.


....in fact, Karas uses oral tradition to interpret the written tradition...

OK. So, have you heard him chant? Of course you have. WHICH TRADITIONAL CHANTER DOES HE MOST APPROXIMATE? And from which chanter in the 60+ years of recorded audio material have you (or anyone else of your movement) heard the CADENCES and the VOCAL ACROBATISMS that Karas performs. Can you supply audio evidence of one or more such chanter contemporary of Karas (i.e. in the 40s 50s or 60s) who sounded like him? And since you are on tradition, WHO WERE HIS TEACHERS??



Next, we have compared the performance of two representative melodies (one was a request of Mr. Ioannis Arvanitis) using Karas ' intervals and those of the 1881 Committe and of Chrysanthos. Listen to the sound files while looking at the text.

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=79964&postcount=1

and

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80147&postcount=45

DOES IT NOT BOTHER YOU AT ALL THAT THE KARAS INTERVALS DO NOT PRODUCE ANYTHING CLOSE TO SECOND TONE????



the ecumenical patriarch is NOT opposed to the Karas approach to byzantine music.....he works closely with many Karas influenced teachers and chantors.....in fact, his All Holiness has publickly honored and praised them numerous times.....any suggestion to the contrary is inaccurate


OK, so get me a letter from the Patriarch stating that Mr. Angelopoulos represents the tradition of Byzantine Chant (any tradition). Really, I want you or Mr. Angelopoulos to obtain and secure and PUBLISH such a letter.

The Patriarch bestows titles on many people for THEIR COMMITMENT TO THE CHURCH. An offikion recognises SERVICE. NOT AUTHENTICITY. Learn about offikia before making nonsensical comments....

Furthermore, the Patriarchate selects chanters that represent a unique style and tradition. That is why Asteris is the Protopsaltis.


NG

Nikolaos Giannoukakis said:

Dear Fr. Ephraim,

The posts and the posters speak for themselves.

In Christ.

NG

Click to expand...

Yes they do Mr. Giannoukaki.

"""""Well, I really really thank you for your generous offer to permit me to recite the epistle reading. I introduced myself to you and your brother at the end of the Katavasies. After the "typika" smiles and handshakes, both of you shoved the microphones so close to your mouths to ensure that only your voices would be picked up. BTW, I was the only other person at the analogion that day. I am 6 ft 2, so perhaps I was not large enough to notice. The epistle reading, BTW, was consequent to YOUR PARISH PRIEST COMING OUT AND ADMONISHING YOU for your "embrace" of, at least, this visitor.....""""""

And when you are a visitor to another analogion and you speak like this, you shockingly show who you are. As a colleague I greatly respect says, "We are people first and musicians second." I choose not to follow you down this kind of "discussion".

Good day.....

I will post only when the discussion is civil.

And silence does not necessarily imply agreement. . .

"We are people first and musicians second."

Precisely Mr. Nassis.

And filoxenia has a definition as well.....

N.

Nikolaos Giannoukakis said:

"We are people first and musicians second."

Precisely Mr. Nassis.

And filoxenia has a definition as well.....

N.

Click to expand...

filoxenia as well as anthropia and sevasmo...... :wink: