General perspectives on Simon Karas' work and its criticism

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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Dear Mr. Nassis,

I tried very hard to understand your very confused response (above).

1) You entered the forum defending the Karas method did you not?

2) Since you chose to defend the Karas method, you MUST ANSWER THE QUESTIONS POSED TO YOU.

(These here remain unanswered: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=80683&postcount=5)

3) You have NOT answered those and these other questions
(This is probably the FIFTH REMINDER):

(see here: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...22&postcount=3

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...83&postcount=5

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...87&postcount=7

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...3&postcount=43

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...2&postcount=37)


4) Instead, you go off on tangents, initiate non-scientific discussion, all with the objective of AVOIDING to answer the questions that you MUST ANSWER TO DEFEND KARAS

5) Then, after making enough noise to auto-designate yourself as Chicago's representation of Angelopoulos and Karas, you shift gears tonight and call yourself "Representing myself".

Mr. Nassis, if you are defending Karas, ANSWER THE QUESTIONS! You sought academic discussion did you not?


Then, WHY ARE YOU AVOIDING IT????

If you are representing yourself and propose YET ANOTHER NEW THEORY, please write it up, send it out to every conservatory in the world of Eastern Orthodox Christinity (Greece, Balkans, former Soviet republics, Middle East, Africa), send it to the appropriate ecclesiastic authorities and let it be evaluated by the CONSENSUS.

If your theory has merits, we will seriously consider it and you may one day be bestowed the title of MEGAS EFEYRETHS (Grand Innovator).

If this is not your intent, but your intend is to defend Karas, ANSWER THE QUESTIONS:

(this is a SIXTH REMINDER, in case you forgot from immediately above):

(see here: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...22&postcount=3

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...83&postcount=5

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...87&postcount=7

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...3&postcount=43

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...2&postcount=37)


And if you don't have the time to answer all, then at least here is an easy one for you:

Post the fractions that corresponds to these intervals published in Karas' two-tome theory:

(see here:http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...9&postcount=78)


Once you complete this simple task, we'll raise the bar to try and better understand the Karas method.....

N.B.

In a post a couple of minutes ago, you make the following comment:

"But we must recognize untraditional practices regardless of anyone's vocal virtuosity. Tradition is more important than vocal beauty and talent.."

Mr. Nassis, you evidently don't agree with the rationally-accepted definition of the word tradition

(http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82240&postcount=37).

Clearly you have another idea and definition for the meaning of the word.

So that we can all use the same denominator, can you please DEFINE YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORD TRADITION?

We'll pick up the discussion after you provide the fractions for the intervals above

(and here): http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...9&postcount=78

and your definition of the word tradition.....

N.B.2:

Last, you state that "the Greek Byzantine Choir does not have any "organized PR". I can say this categorically because I know from first hand knowledge."

So, from your "first hand knowledge" Mr. Nassis, can you please enlighten the forum about the corporation HARMONIA MUNDI (http://www.harmoniamundi.com). What is Harmonia Mundi, Mr. Nassis? Has the Greek Byzantine Choir and Mr. Angelopoulos ever been published AND PROMOTED BY THIS CORPORATION worldwide? Please be VERY careful in your reply because it is vital to your credibility as a "first hand knowledge" source of ELBYX's promoter(s) worldwide.

You have THREE TASKS MR. NASSIS:

1) Answer the academic questions first
2) define the word tradition as you believe it
3) answer the question about Harmonia Mundi

IN THAT ORDER and DO NOT AVOID THE QUESTIONS.

NG
 

greek487

Tasos N.
"His imaginative and creative interpretations never cease to amaze me." Imagination and creative interpretation is NOT in line with tradition. You cannot have it both ways . . . Karas and his acolytes are either traditional or they are imaginative and interpretatively creative. I agree with you that they are VERY imaginative and EXCEPTIONALLY interpretatively creative.


Everyone,

Please lend me your ears.

This is very important, in my opinion.

Within the parameters of what is strictly traditional music and liturgical practice, our goal is to interprete, re-interpret, and re-interpret. And imagination and creativity are key.

Mr. Giannoukakis, are you telling me that Stanitsas, Priggos, Panagiotidis, Firfiris, and Sfikas were not imaginative and creative in their interpretations of classical scores? (And I'm talking about the Stanitsas that chanted from classical compositions, not the free-wheeling improvizing show-boat.)

They chanted these pieces exactly the same every time? No. They worked the piece, re-worked it, and re-interpreted it. Via imagination and creativity, they unlocked the musical meanings and beauty of traditional compositions which noone had recognized before. Afterall, that's why we love them so much. And that is precisely what the Greek Byzantine Choir does and has accomplished.

Forgive me, but your rigid and stiff understanding of tradition and artistry is clearly illustrated by your very own simplistic and uninspired renditions of byzantine music.

Please see http://www.youtube.com/user/ByzChoirPGH

Clearly, these renditions correspond with your statement, "Imagination and creative interpretation is NOT in line with tradition."

But tradition is alive and dynamic, creative, and imaginative, not static, dry, and empty. As a brillian iconographer once told me, "Our goals are the same; you and I. We are trying to say something new, without changing the old."

We are called to be traditionalists, strong believers, but also artists.

Maybe YOU cannot have it both ways (yet, at least), but it is very possible and it can be accomplished. Just look at the Vatopaidi fathers, the Greek Byzantine Choir, the choir Tropos, the Maestores, Hagiopolites, Byzantion, Stavropoleos, Thessalonikois Ymnodoi and many other groups.

Did Hatzimarkos teach these fundamentally erroneous principles?

Tasos
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Dear Mr. Nassis:

You have AGAIN FAILED to answer DIRECT QUESTIONS!

1) What is YOUR DEFINITION OF THE WORD TRADITION?

2) Forget about Stanitsas, Priggos and Paangiotidis (because to the Karas acolytes they are abominations. I am shocked that you even type the names Mr. Nassis!). STICK WITH THE TOPIC UNDER DISCUSSION WHICH IS KARAS AND HIS THEORY AND HIS SELF-IMPOSED CUTOFF FROM THE CONSENSUS OF BYZANTINE CHANT.

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS (this is the seventh reminder):

(see here: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...22&postcount=3

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...83&postcount=5

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...87&postcount=7

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...3&postcount=43

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...2&postcount=37)

Post the fractions that corresponds to these intervals published in Karas' two-tome theory:

see here:http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...9&postcount=78)


As for my (in your words: "rigid and stiff understanding of tradition and artistry....illustrated by your very own simplistic and uninspired renditions of byzantine music" (http://www.youtube.com/user/ByzChoirPGH)) I plead guilty Mr. Nassis.

And indeed, as you state: "these renditions correspond with your statement, "Imagination and creative interpretation is NOT in line with tradition.""

I prefer to be associated with history and accuracy Mr. Nassis and not some contemporary sexiness that is ephemeral (because Karas WILL be just a dissonant note for historians to gloss over in 200 years, whereas the CONSENSUS psaltae and choirs will be remembered for their staunch resistance to heretical innovations). Please understand that I am using the term "heresy/heretical" in the strict definition of how the ancient Greeks used it without any religious connotations.

On your conjecture of iconography and innovation, if your brilliant iconographer proposed, as an "artist" to re-make the centuries old figures of the saints rounder plumper and more Rubenesque because it would represent a re-interpretation of an interpretation, would this be considered "traditional"?

As for the Vatopaidi fathers Mr. Nassis, there are some interesting rumors about their recent decision to return to pre-Karas and pre-Angelopoulos chant. Can you verify these rumors? And if they are true, can you please report here on WHY this decision was made?

NG
 
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greek487

Tasos N.
Has the Greek Byzantine Choir and Mr. Angelopoulos ever been published AND PROMOTED BY THIS CORPORATION worldwide?

Have they? I'd love to know how, when, where. I must've missed the Haromnia Mundi commercials and advertisements. :D

But seriously, I would love to see what exactly you mean. I would be thrilled to see such a corporation support the Greek Byzantine Choir's exceptional work. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

But last I checked though, Harmonia Mundi is not a PR firm. (I've tried charging them for my PR work but it's still pro bono.....wish me luck....haha)

Regarding the answering of questions, I told you that I am not a musicologist and I am not an expert (as you claim to be). The reason why I started writing at all was to state that calling Karas a "heretic" is not musicological, academic, nor scientific. You have yet to renounce that statement.

Oh, and did you answer these clear and succinct questions yet? They might've gotten mixed up in all the long-winded posts.


Simon Karas' accomplishments are far greater than merely the "Karas Method". Afterall, he inspired a much wider renaissance.
A few questions to consider what separates traditional from less traditional (you prefer 'outlier' and 'heretic' which causes stark divisions; I do not).
Do you chant the typika every Sunday?
Do you chant the Makarismous?
Do you chant the Prokeimenon tou Apostolou?
Do you chant the Allilouaria with stichous?
Do you encourage your priest to return to traditional practices as well in regards to his liturgical practices?
Do you do the kanones during the Orthros?
Do you chant arges Katavasies in the Orthros?
Which leitourgika do you chant? Anything goes? Or do you improvise?
How do you perform the isokratima? There's plenty of contradictions within oral tradition. Which is best? What did Hatzimarko teach in regards to isokratima? How does it compare to what Kara illustrates?
What xerouvika do you chant? Taliadoro? Karamani? Theodosopoulo? Do you perform long improvizations for the Triadi, much like Stanitsa did? Is that "traditional" in your eyes?
Do you chant the arges katavasies after liturgy?
What repertoire do you chant for vespers? Who do you consider "traditional" composers? Are Petro, Stefano, Filanthidi, Iakovo outliers as well?
Do you chant the 'Eidomen to Fos to Alithinon' and 'Eih to onoma Kyriou' in plagal first like the Hatzimarko 'acolytes' do? Or in second mode as is traditional?
How many different modes do you chant the epistles in? Is that traditional?
Do you chant the classical koinonika or simply chant Manoli Hatzimarko's "Anti Koinoniko Eulogiso ton Kyrion"? Which is traditional and which is outlier?
Ever notice what composers Archon Protopsalti Lycourgos Angelopoulos interprets? Do you have nothing positive to say here as well? Doesn't Angelopoulo deserve much praise and many thanks for his efforts to refocus our attention to these classical composers? If you do not think so, how can we therefore take your thoughts on byzantine music seriously?

Is there no basis for all of these reforms in our history? Do you think these are Karas' "arbitrary" innovations?


taso
 

greek487

Tasos N.
I prefer to be associated with history and accuracy Mr. Nassis and not some contemporary sexiness

On your conjecture of iconography and innovation, if your brilliant iconographer proposed, as an "artist" to dress up the Virgin and the Saints in sexy lingerie and putting on them Lady Gaga makeup......

NG

This is a public forum. And when the discussion is led towards the lewd, the vulgar, and the blasphemous, then the CONVERSATION IS OVER ....RIGHT HERE . . . RIGHT NOW......AND FOREVERMORE
 
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apostolos

Απόστολος Κομπίτσης
Mr. Nassis,

You are way out of line as far as the topic of this thread is concerned. It appears to me that all of this stuff is just way over your head and, at this point, you're just spewing forth a lot of crap that shifts the scope away from the main issue (which is why I asked you in an earlier post if you were an attorney).

The main issue, of course, is the Karas "method"; that is, the "method of chanting; that is, Gero-Simo's re-invention of scales and modes and re-definition of old symbols which have not been in use for many, many years (and which we cannot interpret due to lack of audio samples). And as we know, all of this has been done according to HIS OWN "interpretation" and "fantasy", and NOT according to any basis of received tradition.) You don't seem to be grasping this, which is resulting in us getting into nothing more than a shouting match. You keep claiming you're not an expert, but from what I understand about non-experts is that they are willing to listen to reason and to understand the truth. You, on the other hand, are acting as if you ARE an expert. If you're such a non-expert though, why don't you examine the issue logically, scientifically, examine all of the facts (FACTS, Mr. Nassis, not just rumors and opinions) and THEN make up your mind?

Mr. Nassis, I understand that in your great city of Chicago you have, among others, a wonderful resource there in the person of Mr. Nick Georgiafentis, who is a traditional and talented individual who knows his stuff very well. Have you discussed any of your ideas with HIM? Have you even consulted with him to ask what all of the Karas hullaballoo is about? I think it might behoove you to do so, don't you think? Give him all of the empty ammunition you're frothing at the mouth about in this forum. Run it all by him. Tell him everything that Mr. Giannoukakis and I and others are telling you. In fact, print this whole thread out and discuss it with him, expressing your concerns and doubts. THEN, come back here and report what he tells you.

Of course, all of this AFTER you do the homework that Mr. Giannoukakis has already assigned you...:D:D

Apostolos
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
...just when I was typing answers to the questions you sought from me about Typikon Mr. Nassis.

What a shame.

But I will answer you:

You write:
" [re. Harmonia Mundi]; Have they? I'd love to know how, when, where. I must've missed the Haromnia Mundi commercials and advertisements."

Mr. Nassis! You surprise me! First you claim "first hand knowledge" about ELBYX and now you plead ignorance? What is the truth Mr. Nassis? Do you or do you not possess "first hand knowledge"? If you really possess "first hand knowledge" then surely you know about Harmonia Mundi! Some detective work for you: Find out and post the number of CDs HM published for Mr. Angelopoulos as well as the amount of money (dollars and euros) spent on the promotion of his work and who was paid. Post your findings here for all to consider.

If Harmonia Mundi is not engaged in PR, then what are they engaged in?

You then write: "Regarding the answering of questions, I told you that I am not a musicologist and I am not an expert (as you claim to be)."

Then if you are not an expert why did you seek academic discourse? Are you simply throwing terms around Mr. Nassis? Either you are or you are not familiar with the Karas method? If you are, then by definition you are able to answer the academic questions. Period.

You then write: "The reason why I started writing at all was to state that calling Karas a "heretic" is not musicological, academic, nor scientific. You have yet to renounce that statement."

And you did not understand that the way I use the term is not in the religious context. It is used in the manner the ancient Greeks used it. Look it up. I've already defined it for you as "an outlier, not in line with the consensus".

You then write: "Oh, and did you answer these clear and succinct questions yet? They might've gotten mixed up in all the long-winded posts."

Your questions have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC HEADING. We are discussing Simon Karas' theory and his interpretation of Byzantine Music. If you want to start a thread on "what practices of the Typikon are in use in modern parishes in the USA" that is another topic for discussion. It is YOU who is diluting the conversation......

I will gladly answer your questions under another thread. This thread was created by the moderator to restrict discussion on the Karas method and his interpretation of Byzantine music.

But to answer those typikological questions Mr. Nassis, how much of the Typikon (indeed the many typika) do you understand? On what basis should I answer your question? The Typikon of the Great Church of Christ of Konstantinos? Violakis? Economos George Rigas? Monastery of Sinai? St-Savas of Jerusalem? Do you know that some of the practices you refer to were post 7th century developments and evolutions and were non-existent in the earlier Christian communities?

You list a number of practices. Which are in line with the EARLIEST CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY practices? Which are monastic practices? Which are monastery-specific?

The practices you ask me to answer were in place LONG BEFORE KARAS WAS BORN and in everyday service of countless monasteries and parishes in Greece. If you imply that Karas brought out the practices (below) out of obscurity and into everyday practice, then you have absolutely no idea of the ecclesiastic practices in Greece and Asia Minor in the last century!

But, let's look at each one of your questions:

I will preface the answers by APPLAUDING YOU because I can infer from your questions that your services (in your parish) must exceed five hours. If you have parishioners with that stamina and faith, I APPLAUD YOU AND YOUR PRIEST. However, your parish's schedule lists orthros no longer than 90 minutes and liturgy no longer than 90 minutes. If YOU ACTUALLY PERFORM THAT WHICH YOU ASK OF ME IN 3 hours, then you really deserve KUDOS!

Now to my answers and commentary:

You write: "Do you chant the typika every Sunday?"
No.

You write: "Do you chant the Makarismous?"
No.

You write: "Do you chant the Prokeimenon tou Apostolou?"
No.

You write: "Do you chant the Allilouaria with stichous?"
No.

You write: "Do you encourage your priest to return to traditional practices as well in regards to his liturgical practices?"
Our priest follows the directives of our Metropolitan. He is not ABOVE the Metropolitan and neither am I. We RESPECT our leaders.

You write: "Do you do the kanones during the Orthros?"
Up to and including third ode (resurrectional, the ecclesiastic period and the minaion as directed by the diataxis of the day).

You write: "Do you chant arges Katavasies in the Orthros?"
Only when there is a need for it and there are enough people to actually appreciate them. The eirmologic manner of chant is the OLDEST AND THE MOST TRADITIONAL. Slow eirmologic was a later development and is fertile ground for abuse.


You write: "Which leitourgika do you chant? Anything goes? Or do you improvise?"
If you want to call yourself a traditionalist, then the ONLY POSSIBLE responses to the ANAPHORA (indeed, we do not call them leitourgika if you know your ecclesiology Mr. Nassis) are the simple epistle-like XYMA with the kliton....as done for centuries at the Patriarchal church of St-George.


You write: "How do you perform the isokratima? There's plenty of contradictions within oral tradition. Which is best?"
There is only ONE historically accurate method of isokratima. IN THE CONTEXT OF THE TETRACHORD. I assume you understand what this means.


You write: "What xerouvika do you chant? Taliadoro? Karamani? Theodosopoulo? "
From volume three of Progakis' Mousiki Syllogi.


You write: "Do you perform long improvizations for the Triadi, much like Stanitsa did? Is that "traditional" in your eyes?"
Whatever is written in the Progakis syllogi is what we do. If the triadi is 3 minutes long, it is done as written. If it consists of 15 neumes (Konstantinos for example) then 15 neumes it is......


You write: "Do you chant the arges katavasies after liturgy?"
We prefer doughnuts and coffee. The term AMHN has a specific meaning at the end of the service. It SECURES AN ENDING. Anything else is theatrics. Sometimes, they offer tsipouro (Greek moonshine for our non-Greek friends) and loukoumia.......


You write: "What repertoire do you chant for vespers? Who do you consider "traditional" composers? Are Petro, Stefano, Filanthidi, Iakovo outliers as well?"
Mousiki Syllogi Progakis.......Volume 1


You write: "Do you chant the 'Eidomen to Fos to Alithinon' and 'Eih to onoma Kyriou' in plagal first like the Hatzimarko 'acolytes' do? Or in second mode as is traditional?"
Second TONE Mr. Nassis. We do not use the word MODE as an English translation for HXOS.


You write: "How many different modes do you chant the epistles in? Is that traditional?"
Me to kliton, if you know what this means......


You write: "Do you chant the classical koinonika or simply chant Manoli Hatzimarko's "Anti Koinoniko Eulogiso ton Kyrion"? Which is traditional and which is outlier?"
From the Progakis Syllogi volume 3 Mr. Nassis.


Now that your inquisition is over, why don't you answer MY QUESTIONS:

(see here: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...22&postcount=3

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...83&postcount=5

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...87&postcount=7

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...3&postcount=43

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...2&postcount=37)

Post the fractions that corresponds to these intervals published in Karas' two-tome theory:

see here:http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...9&postcount=78)

You finally write: "Ever notice what composers Archon Protopsalti Lycourgos Angelopoulos interprets?"

Yes, he is very inventive like his teacher.

Then you write: "Do you have nothing positive to say here as well?"

Absolutely NOTHING positive. Indeed, an Otorhinolaryngologist colleague noticed that Angelopoulos' acolytes suffer from a syndrome that they are mimicking in their attempt at mimesis. My ORL colleague believes that Angelopoulos must have a blocked nose (chronic sinusitis) and that the acolytes may misinterpret a medical pathology for "yfos".......


You further write: "Doesn't Angelopoulo deserve much praise and many thanks for his efforts to refocus our attention to these classical composers? If you do not think so, how can we therefore take your thoughts on byzantine music seriously?"

Basically Mr. Nassis you are saying that unless I fall on my knees and worship Karas and Angelopoulos I cannot be taken seriously.

If these following questions (NINTH REMINDER) are answered SERIOUSLY by you and the Karas acolytes, and the answers question and trump 60+ years of oral witness, then maybe I will review my beliefs:

(see here: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...22&postcount=3

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...83&postcount=5

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...87&postcount=7

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...3&postcount=43

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...2&postcount=37)

Post the fractions that corresponds to these intervals published in Karas' two-tome theory:

see here:http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...9&postcount=78)


FINALLY, you ask: "Do you think these are Karas' "arbitrary" innovations?"

Answer the questions above and you will have answered this last question you raise.....The answers may turn out to challenge YOUR convictions.

NG
 

greek487

Tasos N.
Within message #42 of the category General / Psaltic Tradition / General perspectives on Simon Karas' work and its criticism, I argued,
But tradition is alive and dynamic, creative, and imaginative, not static, dry, and empty. As a brillian iconographer once told me, "Our goals are the same; you and I. We are trying to say something new, without changing the old."

We are called to be traditionalists, strong believers, but also artists.

Mr. Giannoukakis responded in message #43 saying,
On your conjecture of iconography and innovation, if your brilliant iconographer proposed, as an "artist" to dress up the Virgin and the Saints in sexy lingerie and putting on them Lady Gaga makeup to "innovate", to "interpret" and "re-interpret" then we are all in a lot of trouble Mr. Nassis......

And when I expressed outrage at his lewd and blasphemous statement with,
This is a public forum. And when the discussion is led towards the lewd, the vulgar, and the blasphemous, then the CONVERSATION IS OVER ....RIGHT HERE . . . RIGHT NOW......AND FOREVERMORE

his flippant response was,
...just when I was typing answers to the questions you sought from me about Typikon Mr. Nassis.

What a shame.

Has anyone ever expected to see this type of vulgarity and blasphemy in a public forum dealing with byzantine music? Especially during the fast of the Panagia? A vulgar and lewd blasphemy of the holy mother of our God? And we are the chanters who sing her praises?

Is this acceptable from someone who chants and teaches our sacred music?

Regardless of one's philosophy of byzantine music, should ethical standards be lowered when opinions are strongly held?

People say "All's fair in love and war." All's fair in debates on byzantine music as well? Anything goes? Even blaspheme to the Panagia and to the Saints as well?

Do we even care about our office as lower-level clergymen? Or do we chant merely as a hobby and discard all ethical standards we are expected to follow? Deep down do we care only about our egos and couldn't care less about the Church and her teachings?

Are we responsible to hold each other accountable? Should these types of statements be retracted and violators be suspended from the forum?


If we care at all for ethical standards, we should all censure Mr. Giannoukakis.

"Shame on you Mr. Giannoukakis!"

"Please consult your conscience, retract your lewd and blasphemous statement, and apologize to the forum!"
 
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mmamais

Μαμάης Μιχάλης
Mr Nassis, what Mr. Giannoukakis said that shocked you, has already been done by european artists, let's not google it to post it here. As a member of the forum i don't feel offended just by the presence of that phrase in your discussion with him. Why don't you help finish your argument, not by agreeing with his ideas, but by answering questions and providing the necessary feedback.
In my opinion this helps keep the flow of a conversation. You put forward your idea, you support it with points, the other man does the same, each one answers if he can the other's questions etc. etc.

And so, a discussion doesn't get out of control.
 

Dimitri

Δημήτρης Κουμπαρούλης, Administrator
Staff member
[Moderator's note] I personally do not like the type of 'discussion' in this thread. I asked earlier to not continue it because I could predict the end result. Arguments and intentions by all sides have been presented and re-iterated many times. There does not seem to be a point maintaining this type of discourse which in many respects violates forum rules. Plus I am sure it is tiring for everyone, especially in this period of the church year.

Taso (and all), if you have an issue with respect to a statement of another member please PM that member and eventually the moderators. Do not start a public thread about it, according to the forum rules.

I personally take the extreme example of Mr Giannoukakis as an extreme example only to support an argument and not as having offensive intent. Since however, some members have and may be offended by it, I ask and leave it up to him to rephrase that statement using different words and all related messages be removed immediately.
 

saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
On your conjecture of iconography and innovation, if your brilliant iconographer proposed, as an "artist" to dress up the Virgin and the Saints in sexy lingerie and putting on them Lady Gaga makeup to "innovate", to "interpret" and "re-interpret" then we are all in a lot of trouble Mr. Nassis......
NG

For a variety of reasons, I have stopped publicly taking sides on these exchanges (my thank you's generally only mean a polite acknowledgment that I have read the posting). Too much temptation for one. I only chime in when something isn't clear to me and is persistantly unclear. Thank you for those who have responded.

Given that we all hold the distinguished office we all hold as Orthodox ieropsaltai, meaning no disrespect to Dr. Giannoukakis', I would be inclined to agree with Kyr Nassis' protest --I think this was a little "over the top". For those in or those about to enter the Theotokos Fast ---we have enough temptations.

Wishing all a good Fast.

JPP
 

greek487

Tasos N.
Mr. Combitsis,

I don't think I have ever initiated a conversation with you on this forum or any other. As I have said (for about the 10th time. . . :p ) I initially wrote to refute Mr. Giannoukakis' charges of "heresy", a term he thinks can possibly have no religious connotation in today's world. We do not live in ancient Greece gentlemen. And you know exactly how the word "heresy" is used.

Mr. Nassis,

You are way out of line as far as the topic of this thread is concerned. . . all of this stuff is just way over your head and, at this point, you're just spewing forth a lot of crap that shifts the scope away from the main issue (which is why I asked you in an earlier post if you were an attorney).

Give him all of the empty ammunition you're frothing at the mouth about in this forum.

Of course, all of this AFTER you do the homework that Mr. Giannoukakis has already assigned you

As you can clearly see, your posts have a measure of hostility and vitriol that is common in other less dignified contexts . . . inner-city streets? the ghetto? Talk to your fellow gang members or your poor kids that way. Not to me sir.

Think about it. Face-to-face, would you really address someone you hardly know in this manner? And expect a response? Reasonable people would simply walk away. Is this the way you speak to your poor students? Do you even read what you write before sending?

Regardless, I have tried to respond to you when you address me. But do you really think you are seeking a fruitful and meaningful conversation? Do you really want to hear what I have to say?

In a message to cmkon.org on 22-05-01, you write
Synginithika idiaiterws otan eida pou eixate dosei arketo xoro stin mnimitou Arxontos Protopsaltou tis M.t.X.E. k. Thr. Stanitsa, ton opoion ton theoro daskalo mou.

Maybe Stanitsa did had a jumbo-sized ego, absolutely no humility, and a prima donna attitude, as his biography suggests. But at least he was Stanitsa. His talent made people tolerate his egomania and temper. What's your excuse?

You continue in your message to cmkon.org to say,
Sas stelno ws file attachment ena .RAM file opou psailno ego, gia na akousete oti kai edo stin xenitia, yparxoun merikoi apo mas pou prospathoume na kratisoume tin Byzantini mas mousiki sosta

And that's great. Continue to practice as your teachers (cassette tapes I presume) show you. But don't for a second think that you or anyone else has a monopoly on our great and varied TRADITION.

Because your mentor Mr. Giannoukakis makes the same mistake. He wrote to me,
Forget about Stanitsas, Priggos and Paangiotidis [sic] (because to the Karas acolytes they are abominations. I am shocked that you even type the names Mr. Nassis!).

Gentlemen, those individuals are not just your tradition. They are mine as well. Perhaps more so. Because I actually understand what they sought to achieve - INTERPRETATION.

Taso
p.s. So if someone asks you, who is your teacher?....you will say Stanitsas taught me? :eek: And dia zosas fonis? How does that fit in? Isn't that the traditional practice?
 

Dimitri

Δημήτρης Κουμπαρούλης, Administrator
Staff member
[Moderator's note] Taso, I do not approve the attacks against you, however, your attitude to public discussion (now and in the past in this forum) has been argumentative and evasive and provocative of flame wars for which I have already warned you. There is no need to repeat many times something you have already said. There is no need for personal attacks. It is wise to know when to stop a conversation as well as when to start it. Please end it here.
 

greek487

Tasos N.
Mr. Mamais,

I doubt you would use that kind of retort in a legitimate discussion about interpreting our sacred musical tradition. Would you? I believe vulgarity and blasphemy should have no place in this forum.

Furthermore, would you refer to a choir, any choir, as illustrating "contemporary sexiness" like Mr. Giannoukakis has? Is our vocabulary so poor and unsophisticated that we cannot describe our perceptions in ANY other way? Or does it suit our agenda to use provacative language to create impressions?

Can't we abandon such unethical and low-brow language? And if we cannot agree on the basics of human decency in an esteemed forum such as this, then how could we delve into deeper musical analysis?

No one, absolutely no one, should be accused of "heresy" in a musicological context. Not even the most untraditional of musicians. And I say this as someone who has been labeled a "Kara acolyte", as if I've introduced myself as such.

What would the purpose be for me to address sub-arguments when the reality is that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES are we to typecast other musicians as "heretics". We all know what this word means and what its use is.

Outliers is the second loaded term of choice, but at least, author Malcolm Gladwell has a book about it called Outliers: The Story of Success where he examines the factors that contribute to high levels of success.

I will continue to call out the self-proclaimed authorities on their false terminology, their reductive labels, and their ill-conceived agenda to exclude entire battalions of musicians in order to monopolize our tradition. As if that agenda were even practicable.

And if I can't find ANY common ground, even in regards to the basic concept of interpreting our oral and written tradition, then covering new and fresh territory really isn't possible.

Thank you,
Taso
 

Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
Dear Dimitri (Moderator),

As you correctly stated, and as Mr. Mamais noted, my aim was not to scandalise, but to demonstrate how one extreme interpretation in one art is no different than an extreme and an outlier in another art (in our case, music). The profanity expressed in the former, is the profanity the consensus psaltae hear and feel in the Karas heresy.

But, in the interests of good people in the forum who were scandalised by the shock of the comparison, first I apologise to them and I have changed that sentence to maintain the gravity of my argument, but in a less profane context (http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82257&postcount=43).

As a moderator, Dimitri, time and time again you have seen first hand the methods of those who are staunch supporters of the Karas ideology and I must remind you that it was YOU who started the thread on Simon Karas. None of us had the intention to move into this realm because of the predictability of the following:

1) When confronted with data and science, the Karas ideologues evade the questions asked of them.

2) When they feint a demand for dialogue on academic grounds and their bluff is called, they reply under the cover of threats, cajoles and petty childish behaviour. Look at this current thread.

3) They consider it a right and they demand it often to impose an inquisition on others, but they invoke another standard of immunity from academic inquiry when direct academic questions are posed to them. Seems that they consider themselves above the law and will not participate in scientific dialogue although they claim they use the scientific method. They engage a discussion as experts and when their heresy is exposed they claim "but I never said I was an expert". They can't have it both ways.

Mr. Moderator, I have shown my HONESTY in this thread. I responded to Mr. Nassis' inquisition (http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82262&postcount=47). Would HE have the decency, these holy days he so fondly invokes, to answer my questions (see below)?

Otherwise, Dimitri, Mr. Moderator, please end this thread.

Mr. Nassis is apparently not interested in scientific discussion but in ensuring that his heresy is above all laws of discussion and debate and off limits from any inquiry. He is the law and he is the truth.

Last, please read and consider the following. Any rational human can understand it:

From Wikipedia: "Today, heresy can be without a religious context as the holding of ideas that are in fundamental disagreement with the status quo in any practice and branch of knowledge. Religion is not a necessary component of the term's definition. The revisionist paleontologist Robert T. Bakker, who published his findings as The Dinosaur Heresies, jokingly treated the mainstream view of dinosaurs as dogma. The term heresy is also used as an ideological pigeonhole for contemporary writers because by definition heresy depends on contrasts with an established orthodoxy. For example, the tongue-in-cheek contemporary usage of heresy, such as to categorize a "Wall Street heresy" a "Democratic heresy" or a "Republican heresy", are metaphors which invariably retain a subtext that links orthodoxies in geology or biology or any other field to religion. These expanded metaphoric senses allude to both the difference between the person's views and the mainstream, and the boldness of such a person in propounding these views."

In the contemporary setting therefore as well as that of the ancient Hellenes, I am not retracting my term "heretic" and any of its derivatives to describe the innovations and creativity of Karas and his acolytes. They were, they are and they will always be outliers, not part of the consensus and they have cut themselves off from the corpus of the consensus psaltae. They are innovative and inventive and very creative. They are not representatives of any sort of tradition no matter how much they scream, kick, cajole and insult.

Last, I still await answers to these questions from Mr. Nassis (TENTH REMINDER):

(see here: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...22&postcount=3

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...83&postcount=5

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...87&postcount=7

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...3&postcount=43

AND here:

http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...2&postcount=37)

Post the fractions that corresponds to these intervals published in Karas' two-tome theory:

see here:http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost...9&postcount=78)


NG
 

apostolos

Απόστολος Κομπίτσης
Mr. Nassis,

I will start by responding to this:

As you can clearly see, your posts have a measure of hostility and vitriol that is common in other less dignified contexts . . . inner-city streets? the ghetto? Talk to your fellow gang members or your poor kids that way. Not to me sir.

Think about it. Face-to-face, would you really address someone you hardly know in this manner? And expect a response? Reasonable people would simply walk away. Is this the way you speak to your poor students? Do you even read what you write before sending?

Regardless, I have tried to respond to you when you address me. But do you really think you are seeking a fruitful and meaningful conversation? Do you really want to hear what I have to say?

My posts are NOT hostile, although perhaps slightly less dignified, as you point out. However, I believe that they are most appropriate, given the fact that... well, I hate to seem like I'm pointing the gun back at you, but you, yourself, provoked it. Face-to-face, yes, I WOULD really address someone in this manner, especially someone who refuses to listen to reason and who refuses to engage in proper dialogue concerning the differing points of view, choosing instead to completely dismiss my side of the argument by ranting on and on about his own (unproven and heretical) arguments which, according to consensus, do not hold water.

And when you say "reasonable people would simply walk away", well, it is I who should be walking away from YOU! After all... I'M the one who is supporting traditional Byzantine chant; you, on the other hand, are attempting to argue one man's theories as being "more correct" than the accepted tradition. Yet, you refuse to listen to either my points on the issues (choosing instead to completely shift the scope of the discussion to other meaningless things) or to respond to Mr. Giannoukakis' requests for further information regarding your hero's theories.

I must confess that I really DON'T want to hear what you have to say at this time, ONLY BECAUSE we have no common ground of discussion. Again: you are refusing to perpetuate the dialogue to answering Mr. Giannoukakis' questions, the answers to which would form a solid ground to continue a discussion on the so-called "Karas method". You refuse. So, there's no point in continuing, is there? I mean, am I clear on this? Do you understand my point?

Let's move on.

Thank you for honoring me by doing further Googling and research on me and finding my comments on CMKON's website. Naturally (and true to form as a Karas acolyte), you have taken those comments completely out of context. Allow me to explain: I thanked the CMKON group for including more material on Stanitsas because back when they put up their site, you would hardly see Stanitsas' name mentioned anywhere. There was no Psaltologion, there were no forums, there were no blogs (at least, not the participation that we see today), there was hardly a mention made of Stanitsas. (Did you even see the DATE of that post?) Now, all of a sudden, EVERYBODY is an expert on Stanitsas and DARES to put his recordings through spectral analyses and pass judgments on how "off" he was here or there. I can only use the term "moronic" to describe such activity.

As to your comment:

Maybe Stanitsa did had a jumbo-sized ego, absolutely no humility, and a prima donna attitude, as his biography suggests. But at least he was Stanitsa. His talent made people tolerate his egomania and temper. What's your excuse?

... I can only chuckle at your hyperboles. I don't know which biography you were reading, but did you read the WHOLE THING? Stanitsas was no more a prima donna than your hero, Mr. Karas. At least the former stuck with tradition; the latter dismissed it and chose to redefine it according to his fantasies. As for the other ridiculous descriptions of Stanitsas' character (egomaniac, no humility, bad temper), why don't you go speak with the people who actually KNEW him? With those who worked with him? Ask Mr. Giannou of our forum if Stanitsas was all of those things. Ask Mr. Tzanakos... Mr. Zarakovitis... Go and call Mr. Paikopoulos (I'll even give you his number) and ask him. In fact, why don't you go straight to Mr. Georgiafentis, right in your own neighborhood, as I suggested before? Among all of this other stuff, ask him about Stanitsas, who he knew quite well. I don't believe you'll find descriptions from these people that fit your exaggerations. Instead, you will find Stanitsas described as a man who was very proud and honored of his Patriarchal background; one who defended "tin mousiki mas" - "our music" - vehemently; one who poured his heart and soul into his Church and its Hymnology, and who helped people pray. He was a person who did not deem himself worthy to look into the eyes of Christ, yet beseeched our Panagia for guidance and strength, and in venerating Her icon would say, "Ego, gia sena psailno" ("It is for you that I chant.") It is clear, Mr. Nassis, that you misinterpreted the biography.

Let me go on:

But don't for a second think that you or anyone else has a monopoly on our great and varied TRADITION.

Who said anything about ME having a monopoly on our tradition? And on our great and varied tradition, at that! Are you SERIOUS? Our Byzantine musical tradition is not varied, Mr. Nassis, not as far as the standard of the theoretical SYSTEM (scales, neumes, etc.) is concerned. The "ekfrasis" - the expression - of the hymns utilizing that system is an entirely different matter. But it is this "system" that is under attack. And you, sir, are completely ignoring this point and are choosing, instead, to bring up completely unrelated issues which do not address said point.

Almost finished, Mr. Nassis...Let me also address this:

Because your mentor Mr. Giannoukakis makes the same mistake...

Mr. Giannoukakis is not my "mentor", but I am proud to call him my colleague. I did not study under him, nor did he study under me; yet, we are both from the same "school" and have both learned a few things from each other. I consider him one of the most musically-educated individuals in the U.S. (and Canada, since he's from there originally), and it is a pleasure to sit and discuss these issues with him. You've got a golden opportunity to learn so much from him, and you're tossing it in the garbage. We were both taught under the tradition - the ONLY tradition - of our Ecclesiastical Byzantine Musical system, which is the theory of the Three Teachers, the same theory that is used to chant at the Patriarchate and at Agion Oros and which has been handed down to us in an unbroken teacher/student chain. Since there is only ONE tradition in our Byzantine Music, all other "systems" and "theories" which do not agree with this are (...brace yourself, Mr. Nassis)... heresies.

Finally, let's focus for a moment on this statement of yours:

Gentlemen, those individuals are not just your tradition. They are mine as well. Perhaps more so. Because I actually understand what they sought to achieve - INTERPRETATION.

In this comment, you appropriate Stanitsas, Pringos, Panagiotidis, et al. as YOUR TRADITION and "perhaps more so" (surely, you jest!), and then you emphasize that you "actually understand what they sought to achieve - INTERPRETATION".

Taso, you have already appropriated Karas as your inspiration and tradition (see further down). Karas and those you mention are musically, musicologically and historically mutually exclusive. Here are your own words in a prior post:

What I am is a chanter of byzantine music with many years of experience. I defer to a group of reputable specialists whom I have come to trust. They devote their lives to studying and teaching the theory and practice of byzantine chant. They don't agree with every single thing that Kara said or did, but their overall theoretical framework is based on Kara's extensive work. The theory works wonderfully in practice and has satisfied the musical dilemmas I sought to solve while studying under "traditional" chanters.

In the same reference you incredibly forgot what you wrote a couple of paragraphs earlier and state:

I am not a "champion" of the Karas method. It might be convenient to try to pigeonhole me as one, but I never said I was.

So, in paragraph 1 of that post, you all but make Karas your father, and then later (assuming that your readers forgot what you wrote), you disingeniously act as if you never wrote what you wrote!

So, what is it? Are you, or are you not, a champion of Karas? If you find his theory "works wonderfully in practice and has satisfied the musical dilemmas [you] sought to solve", then you are, by definition, a champion! Accept it! And don't consider your reader to be an imbecile, Mr. Nassis.

Next, you use the word "tradition" in total disregard of its meaning across multiple messages. How do you define the word "tradition"? If you offer a dictionary definition, or your own definition, that is fine. At least we can continue a dialogue on that basis of common understanding on what you mean by the word "tradition".

ONCE AGAIN, Mr. Nassis, you have missed the mark. You have clearly shown that this entire discussion has gone over your head. We are not talking about "interpretation", but about the SYSTEM.... the THEORY. Gero-Simo has re-defined and changed the THEORY and, within this re-definition, he infuses his own "interpretations" of the elements of this THEORY. The "interpretations" of Pringos and Stanitsas have nothing to do with the theory itself, but with their expression and execution of classical melodies. As it turns out, you really DON'T understand AT ALL "what they sought to achieve".

Mr. Moderator, may I humbly second Mr. Giannoukakis' motion to CLOSE THIS THREAD, as Mr. Nassis is clearly not cooperating in advancing the dialogue by providing answers to the critical questions posed by Mr. Giannoukakis. I believe that we have both determined that it is an exercise in futility to continue in a battle of wits against an unarmed man.

Apostolos
 
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Nikolaos Giannoukakis

Παλαιό Μέλος
I actually find it amusing to probe Mr. Nassis' mind.

This is fun!

Keep the thread open. With every feint, bluff, bluster and then hasty retreat into senseless meanderings to avoid replying to direct questions, Mr. Nassis reveals more about the Karas movement and its ex nusquam ut nusquam heresy to the other members of this forum and ultimately the world.

Mr. Combitsis, there really is no need to defend your history and pedigree and the respect you command among the mainstream psaltae of Greece and Constantinople. Where Mr. Nassis salivates at the mere possibility that Harmonia Mundi might one day pick him up (he writes: "I've tried charging them for my PR work but it's still pro bono.....wish me luck....haha" in this reference: http://www.psaltologion.com/showpost.php?p=82258&postcount=44), your name and respect will forever be etched in history (volume 3 of Phillipas Economou's "who's who" of Byzantine Chanters, 1997) at the recommendation of old time Protopsaltae and Music Teachers.

Unlike those who rely on Harmonia Mundi for promotion of heresy, you need no artificial promotion. You have never been inventive, creative, innovative and that may irritate Mr. Nassis. So be it. You at least adhere to "unimaginative" and unwavering, staunch but mainstream psaltic practice. It is not everyday that chanters of the Ecumenical Patriarchate bestow to an American degrees and accolades of authenticity and unwavering adherence to Patriarchal practice........

Perhaps this is what irritates Mr. Nassis. That innovation and creativity do not draw young American minds to the heresy he adheres to. Instead, authenticity and historical truth is sought out. In this regard, and with the support of your Metropolitan and your Church in New Jersey you do not need defense and that is why your students are many and growing in number.


NG
 
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Shota

Παλαιό Μέλος
Now, all of a sudden, EVERYBODY is an expert on Stanitsas and DARES to put his recordings through spectral analyses and pass judgments on how "off" he was here or there. I can only use the term "moronic" to describe such activity.

Could you indicate who are those morons who put Stanitsas' recordings through spectral analyses to pass judgements on how off he is here or there? Thank you.
 

apostolos

Απόστολος Κομπίτσης
Could you indicate who are those morons who put Stanitsas' recordings through spectral analyses to pass judgements on how off he is here or there? Thank you.

Never mind, Mr. Shota. You know exactly what I'm talking about. If not, let it be.

'Nuf said.

Apostolos
 

saltypsalti

Παλαιό Μέλος
Unlike those who rely on Harmonia Mundi for promotion of heresy, you need no artificial promotion.

Longtime classical music listener that I am, I am familiar with the HM label. Just out of raw curiosity, I did a search on HM's website. The only hits for Byzantine were CD's of the Lebanese uniate nun -Marie Keyrouz. Maybe they discontinued the aforementioned line.
 
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